Any project or PMO practitioner knows that resourcing and Resource Capacity Planning are fundamentally difficult areas of the PPM strategy to get visibility and control over. But, this is a crucial driver for strategic growth, operational efficiency, and crucial portfolio pipeline decisions.
Lowell Group, one of Europe’s largest credit management companies, has a compelling mission to make credit work better for all. It’s a mission delivered across eight countries by over 4,000 employees, including 1,500 in the UK. So, for Lowell Group’s PMO, driving effective Resource Capacity Planning is key to business delivery – and the PMO has a crucial role to play!
Led by Tamlynne Chapman, Head of Change Delivery and Jen Spink, outgoing PMO Lead, Lowell Group’s PMO has worked with PPM solutions provider and transformation partner, Planview®, to drive an ambitious transformation from a standing start of cumbersome manual processes to a mature, single source of portfolio truth in the resourcing arena and beyond. Our Associate Editor, Amy Hatton, recently interviewed Tamlynne and Jen to get the low down on their lived experience of the journey, the business benefits, lessons learned and their top tips for PMOs facing similar challenges.
Stream the podcast below and read the transcript to hear Amy, Tamlynne and Jen discuss:
Amy: Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of the PM Today Podcast, a podcast dedicated to all things project management and PMO related. I’m Amy Hatton. I’m the Associate Editor of PM Today. And I’m delighted today to be joined by two very special guests, representing the PMO at Lowell Group. We’ll say a bit more about Lowell Group in a moment. But first let me introduce you all to Tamlynne Chapman, who is Lowell Group’s Head of Change Delivery, and Jen Spink who is the PMO Lead.
I should say that Jen, after spending three years at Lowell Group, is moving on to pastures new shortly, but she has kindly agreed to join Tamlynne today to share their collective experience of driving Lowell’s transformative journey to Resource Management Maturity in the PMO – and extending out across the enterprise. Our listeners love to hear about the experiences of other PMOS – the lessons learned along the way, the stories they’ve got to tell – so Tamlynne, Jen, thanks so much for joining me today! It’s lovely to have you here.
Tamlynne: Thanks Amy. Thanks for having us.
Jen: Hi, Amy. Great to be here.
Amy: Fantastic to have you both here ladies, thanks so much for joining us. And just for the benefit of our listeners, let’s put a little bit of context around your work with Lowell Group. Lowell is one of Europe’s largest credit management companies. Its mission is to make credit work better for all and it’s committed to fair and ethical customer practices – operating across the UK, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Sweden.
The group employs over 4,000 people, including 1,500 in the UK. And underpinning all of this work and Lowell Group’s mission to make credit work better for all is the work of your PMO. So, it’s quite a job that you’re that you’re facing! And you’ve been on quite a transformative journey, particularly in the area of underpinning your Resource Management journey. It’s a journey that’s been supported by the Planview platform of solutions for PPM (project portfolio management). And it’s a journey that’s still evolving now.
But let’s start by looking back a little bit. Tamlynne, I’ll come to you first, if I may. This is a journey that’s been going on for several years. And I think it’s a logical place to start to ask you, what were the real headline challenges that you were facing, looking at Resource Management and at the transformation that you wanted to deliver? I mean, in my experience, Resource Management is arguably the toughest area of Portfolio Management to get right and to get visibility and control over. From your perspective, what were the particular pain points that you faced?
Tamlynne: I think, in looking at the Resource Management issues that we had, we had to take a wider view and ask ourselves, what is it that we’re trying to actually achieve as a function? And our main objective is to support the business so that we can achieve our strategic goals. And we do this by prioritising, assessing and managing the work, based on their alignment and contribution to our organisation’s strategy, and the objectives. And through the PMO, ensure that portfolio governance is upheld. So, looking at the different aspects, Resource Management was one of those things that wasn’t working very well. There was a number of things that had to be identified and dealt with. But Jen was in the thick of it at the time. So, I’ll ask Jen to describe a little bit around the details of that for us.
Jen: Absolutely. When I joined Lowell about three years ago, the PMO function was very much an administrative function. And with Resource Management, we were actually working, assigning resources to all the projects. So, when I joined one of my goals was to move away from that and become a more strategic PMO. What I wanted to move towards was a process where the PMO were not assigning resources, they were looking at the Resource Management as a whole – understanding where the pinch points were and where escalations needed to be made. We were very heavily reliant on Excel processes, and it was very manual. So, we wanted to move away from that. We have a famous story about having a spare laptop, and we had to run a four-hour macro to produce any results. So, we wanted to move to a much more lean way of working and a tool that worked for us.
Amy: Yeah, Jen, I mean, I’m smiling as I listened to you there, because it always amazes me after all these years of evolving towards PM maturity, and seeing the PMO start to take, as you say, that wider strategic role in the business. And yet still, so many organisations, massive amounts of organisations are still running huge portfolios off spreadsheets and siloed information.
With that in mind, though, we’ll come back to the nuts and bolts of the journey and how you went about it in a moment. But Tamlynne, let me just ask you to comment a little bit on the strategic impact that you’ve both talked about a little bit so far. From the point of view of the business, and the way that the PMO is looking at the wider business and how you can add value there, why is that resource pipeline visibility, so important to Lowell Group? Why was that an area where you really felt you needed to focus?
Tamlynne: I think when I described the function of the PMO, we talked about supporting the business through its strategic objectives and that kind of thing. And one of the ways that we do that is around providing actionable MI (Management Intelligence) around the data that we’re creating across the portfolio, so that we can base our decisions on the data which informs and helps us in managing our teams, and the sizes to support the demand of the portfolio. So as a PMO function, I think we thrive when we’re able to provide a real-time view of what’s going on across the portfolio, and we’re able to inform that decision making process.
Amy: Okay, and Jen, from your perspective, I imagine, potentially you’re operationally a bit closer to the day-to-day operations of the PMO and its impact on the business. Anything that you’d like to add in terms of the strategic importance of resource visibility?
Jen: Yeah, I think there can absolutely be direct implications if we don’t have that overall resource view. We can have delays to our work if we don’t understand the demand going forwards, and we’re not able to supply the resources to hit that demand. That can delay the work that we have. If we’re not able to delay that work for whatever reason, it may be regulatory, or, you know, potential loss of benefits, then we might need to bring in contractors, which is obviously a hit to the business in terms of cost.
There’s also potential to have permanent employees without enough work to keep them busy for periods of time. So, it’s really important to have that ongoing forward view. With our previous way of working when we were using Excel, we could only really have that ongoing view for the next few weeks. And we never had that that long term view of resource capacity and demand.
Amy: Yeah, and of course, as well as the strategic impact – and this in itself, as we know, is a big conversation at the moment, how the PMO can grab its place at the business table and demonstrate its impact on the wider enterprise and on the business benefits. But as well as that, of course, our listeners are typically practitioners. And so they are also interested in those nuts and bolts that I mentioned earlier. So, Jen, I’m going to come to you on this one. if that’s okay. This is a transformation journey that started in 2019. It’s still evolving now. How did you actually go about designing the roadmap for implementation? And just also touch for me a little bit on Planview’s PPM solution and how it supported taking those first steps on that roadmap?
Jen: Yeah, so when I joined the business back in 2019, one of the first tasks I was given was to look at the current Resource Management process. And see if we were happy to stick with that process (the four-hour laptop, as previously mentioned!), or if we could move towards using the tool Planview, that had already been selected, but we hadn’t quite been in a position to roll out in the UK yet.
So, for me, I was really keen to understand the business requirements. So, I spent a lot of time speaking to different stakeholders within the business, I spoke to a lot of the resource managers, the project managers, and the leadership team to understand what the main pain points were. And whether or not we could look at an in-house solution by building yet another Excel document that could solve our issues. or if we should move towards something new, i.e. Planview. And for me, it didn’t really make sense to build a tool to do something that we already had the tool to do. And of course, the current solution really wasn’t working for us. So, I did think it was the right thing to move towards Planview. And taking the conversations I’d had with the different stakeholders from around the business.
I wanted to make sure I was focusing on the right areas. So, we did a bit of a MoSCoW approach to it, looked at our “must haves”, “should have”, “could have”, “would have” – the must haves being the Resource Management and alongside that was the timesheeting element. So, our resourcing, forecasting and our actuals. We then obviously – as a secondary – we knew we wanted to look at our should haves: our reporting, we knew that there could be a potential real time saving there and a real focus on quality that we could look at.
So we were looking at what benefits we could get throughout at each stage. We were very much led by the benefits that would give us. And then we knew there were some sort of “nice to haves”, like we wanted to, at some point, put some focus on the planning and the RAID logs. And then eventually we’d like to look at maybe “what-if?” scenario planning. And we took that approach, when we started to look at how we could configure the tool initially.
We made sure that we had a lot of time with Planview to understand what the tool could do for us, and how other businesses use the tool as a solution for our main pinch points, which was the Resource Management, and the timesheeting. And they helped us configure a tool that really worked for us, We did release all the different elements of the tool. So, we did release the planning functionality, and the RAID functionality. We released that to give the PMs the option to use it. But the requirements from a PMO point of view was the resourcing and the timesheeting. They were the key. That’s what we would be checking. That’s what we were doing assurance and health checks on, to make sure that was being done correctly.
As we progressed, and we became more comfortable using the tool and people started to understand it better, we then started to put more focus on the reporting. So, we created the weekly report that we were currently doing in PowerPoint, we translated that over into Planview. And then again, further down the line, as we got more comfortable with that, we moved on to planning and we created some planning guidelines, baselining etc. So, although we did sort of a “big bang” approach, because all the elements were there to use, it was still a staged rollout in terms of what the PMO requirements were. Tamlynne, I know you’ve been involved in the selection and adoption of PPM tools in the past. Is there anything that you’d like to add to that?
Tamlynne: Yeah, I think when I’ve had to do this in the past, what I felt was really beneficial was actually involving a small group of PMs in the selection process of a tool, and where I initiated that thinking and just the identification of which tools was by using Gartner’s Magic Quadrant on Portfolio Management tools. So that was really helpful just to get started and understand what was on the market in terms of quality and size of organisation and relevance to our organisation.
But coming back to making sure that the tool was adopted well, I just found it really helpful to have project managers involved in the selection because that’s the main group of people that you’re going to be calling on, to actually get the data that you need in the best shape possible for the MI that you need to produce. So, if they’re not bought into the tool from the beginning, it makes that whole process a lot, lot harder. So, bringing them along on the journey is key.
Amy: Yeah, and, guys, it’s interesting listening to you talk about the process of selection and implementation and adoption. And that balance that you struck between, as you said, Jen, the big bang versus the iterative approach. I don’t know if you’d agree with me, but in my experience, delivering any kind of change or transformation, it’s very important to have the right toolkit, the right technology, the right capabilities supporting you.
But fundamentally, it’s a human management activity. It’s incredible to me, even after all these years in project management, how people can be instinctively very resistant to any kind of change, whether it be beneficial or not, in fact! It’s simply human nature, isn’t it, that you present people with something new, and they might struggle to adopt it?
So, I’m just wondering, for all of our listeners out there who might be struggling with similar issues, or who might be embarking on a transformation journey like this, what kind of tips and advice you would have for them in terms of ensuring that you’re bringing people along the journey with you? Jen, I think you were probably the sharp end of managing that. So maybe you might want to start on that one?
Jen: Sure, yeah…as well as what Tamlynne had mentioned about bringing people in and having initial consultations, throughout our journey, we’ve tried to keep the project managers particularly – but also the resource managers – very updated in what we’re doing. And make sure that they’re constantly getting plenty of training and given the opportunity to have their say in what they think is working well, and maybe not working so well with Planview. We have also had some learnings.
One of the key learnings that we had was we were often listening to the Planview releases. So Planview, do a monthly release, where they tell you about any new stuff that’s coming through that might be useful for your team. I would listen to that, and then implement where I thought was useful. I’d also let the PMs know if there was a new requirement for them in Planview. And I just sort of dropped emails out to the team as and when this stuff came through, to make sure that everyone had that visibility.
We got some feedback from the project managers that that scattergun approach really wasn’t helping them because it was just too much to keep on top of. So, we took that feedback on board and we created a new meeting every month called the PMO Working Group, where we would do a Planview release every month. So, we’d walk them through a list of all the changes. We’d give any new functionality that was coming through, any reminders for certain elements that maybe they’d forgotten to do or that people were struggling with. And we’d also put through little hints and tips – so, if something new had come through from the release that would make life a bit easier for them. And people have fed back that that’s a lot more helpful for them, it gives them that sort of one drop of knowledge, they have that pack as well to refer back to.
We also have a PMO drop-in session, which we have once a week for project managers to come along to and ask all questions Planview related. That’s really beneficial for them because they know there’s a time every month they can pop along, and not only can they ask questions, they can also listen to other people’s questions and get the responses. But it’s also helpful to us as a PMO team because it means that we’re not getting lots of questions being asked all throughout the week, which can be a little bit distracting for you as a PMO.
So, it’s a mutually beneficial session that gives them the answers they need, but also allows us to focus that knowledge into one area. We also have a video library, so I’ve recorded some training videos for new project managers. There’s an overall introduction to what they need to be doing, and then detailed videos on certain elements that the project managers have fed back they find a little bit more tricky. So, resource management, for example, project planning, we have little segmented videos on that. So, some people prefer to go and read the document library, which we’ve also created. And others prefer to have that sort of visual of someone showing them how to do it. We’ve had a lot of positive feedback that the project managers have found that really helpful. That’s one of the reasons I think that we’ve had quite a successful rollout.
Amy: So quite a lot going on there, Jen! And one thing that strikes me about everything you’ve just described is that is a big piece of work you’ve just described there in itself. Tamlynne, if I can come to you as Head of Change Delivery. Just talk to me a little bit about why it’s important to put PMO resource into that kind of behavioural and supportive work, and also what you should be looking to expect from your vendor or your supplier, to underpin all of that good stuff that Jen is doing in the PMO to encourage user adoption.
Tamlynne: Yeah, I think it’s interesting because Lowell is a medium sized organisation, and I’ve worked in all number of sizes of organisation, but the majority of places have relatively small PMOs, certainly in medium to small organisations. By creating a rich source of material, you’re doing two things. One, you’re making it easy for consumption by the people who need to be using it. And two, you’re building resilience into your PMO in terms of the longevity of the knowledge that is contained within that team and the people in that team, because obviously, when you choose a product, you get product specialists and your PMO will become those product specialists. So by creating the training materials – not just as a user, but also as an administrator of the system – you’re creating that resilience for yourself as an organisation. So, I think it’s really good to invest that time, both from a resiliency point of view and from a quick onboarding of new resource, giving them lots of support and feeling confident about using a tool that they may not have used before. They may not have used any tool before! They may just be used to Project or Excel. So, coming in and using a portfolio management tool may be a little bit unintuitive at first, so the training materials really helped from that perspective.
Amy: Okay, great. So, a huge amount of work that you’ve described there – what sounds like a really meaningful transformation journey so far. I suppose the obvious question is around the impacts and the benefits that you’re seeing, because there’s no point delivering a transformation simply for its own sake. In terms of those benefits and the values that you’re delivering for the business, what would you say the headlines there are so far?
Tamlynne: So, I think we’ve had initial feedback or feedback over time from our wider business stakeholders, which was good from a perspective of the available reporting that we’re able to supply. Also, there’s been time saving in terms of the time spent in actually creating reports and providing information. So having that single source of truth in the tool has really saved us time across all the teams. The resourcing visibility, as well, gives us visibility of where the gaps and issues are, so we’re able to respond a lot quicker. And that has minimised the impact that resourcing issues have created in impeding or being barriers to some of our delivery challenges. And Jen’s obviously at the coalface on all of these reporting and resourcing MI challenges. So, Jen’s probably got some first-hand experience of some of the things that are now better from that perspective.
Jen: Absolutely. And I think you’ve touched on the main areas there with regards to the time savings and the PMO and project managers. I think it’s also worth considering with regards to resource management, Planview gives us the visibility that we never had before. And it shows us where the gaps are. And that’s something we could never see before. We couldn’t see if there was missing data, for example, if there was missing timesheet data, or if there were certain resources that weren’t being included in the resource profiles, and therefore they had capacity that we didn’t know about. As you mentioned, we’ve been getting some feedback from our stakeholders on the weekly report. So some of the Executive team did come back and say that they found the report much more user friendly, they can navigate really well. They were really pleased with that. From a PMO perspective, I do think it’s raised us up a level in maturity as well. We have gone from that administrative PMO to a more strategic PMO. And in terms of the resource management element, we’ve gone from simply assigning the resources to really having an impact. So, there’s some real benefits there. And on a personal level, I do remember a couple of times when we had project managers come up to us and they started to see the bigger picture – how having all that information in one place meant a much smoother process for them creating their weekly reports. I remember one “Eureka” moment where a project manager said to me: “I get it now! I understand why you’re asking for this. And it all makes sense to me.” And when you start to see things come together like that, and you see the project managers appreciate the benefits, you can see the tool starting to actually work for you.
Amy: Okay, ladies, so I suppose the really obvious question is, where next? This is a transformation that’s now been going on since late 2019. As far as I gather, you’re very much still in flight. But you’ve obviously achieved a lot of the impacts and the benefits that you were initially looking to achieve. What’s the next big ambition, Jen?
Jen: Well, we’ve had a few more recent successes, one of which was we implemented something called managed staffing. And that actually came from an audit point that suggested we should have more control around our staffing process. And we took that back to Planview. And they presented this solution to us. So, they were really helpful in finding that solution and helping us implement it. And it essentially means that when we request staff, now, the resource manager has to approve it. It gives a lot more communication between the project manager and the resource manager, we’re now in a position where that’s been making a big impact for us, because we’ve got a lot better visibility of the information coming through. So, we can see now if people aren’t following the processes that we have in place. That’s been a really big success for us. In terms of what’s next, I think one area we need to focus on is the quality of the data. As you know, the quality of the data coming out of Planview is only ever going to be as good as the data going into Planview. And as much as that’s a behavioural issue, it’s certainly one that we need to focus on improving. We also want to look at how Planview can support us with our business agility transformation. We’re already working with Planview to understand whether or not we can look at some integrations with LeanKit®, Project Place®, and potentially doing further integrations with our own systems. We also want to look at how Planview can support moving into a more agile way of working in terms of assigning cost correctly to the pieces of work that we’re doing. So, we’re working very closely with Planview on our look-ahead roadmap, and there’s a lot of exciting stuff still to come through. Tamlynne, is there any you’d like to add?
Tamlynne: Yeah, I think from a transformation perspective, we’re in a good space now. We have the tool rolled out, it’s in use, we’re creating all of our reporting and MI off of it. It’s really about continuous improvement now. As time goes on, the PMO and the change function evolves, and we need to keep up and support that evolution. So, our current evolution is the maturing of our agile function. And making sure that, as a PMO, we’re continuing to support the MI and the reporting that we have in place. Planview has been really good in supporting us through that journey and providing us with both one-to-one consultation as well as a rich library of videos, and podcasts and that kind of thing. So there’s no shortage of library for us to go and look through to get an understanding of what’s coming next, or specifics on a topic that we’re interested in. So that’s been really useful, actually.
Amy: It’s a great story of progress and achievement. And I hope that it’s one that’s really going to resonate with our audience. Obviously, there are a lot of people out there – practitioners, PMO professionals – who are all trying to get to grips with similar challenges. And they’re all around change and transformation and the future of work and that kind of thing. From your perspective, looking back over the journey so far, and looking ahead to all the good stuff that you’re planning that you guys have just described to me – are there any general pieces of advice, pitfalls to watch out for, that you would bring to our listeners attention, lessons learned along the way? Maybe things that you wish somebody had told you in your earlier career? Jen, again, as Tamlynne said, you’re at the coalface of this. So, let me maybe come to you first?
Jen: Absolutely. I think we’ve already touched very much on collaboration being absolutely key for rolling out a PPM tool. If I was doing my time again, I think I would ensure that every key team member had a Planview champion. For example, the project manager team would have their own champion, the resource manager would have their own champion, time users would have their own champion. It means that someone’s got a peer group member they can go to for support and advice. It also means that, if the PMO team aren’t available, there’s someone there who can help and advise them. And there isn’t a single point of failure if one person leaves while that new person is being trained up. So that’s one top tip from me. And the main one is to document everything, document all the processes, and that includes the administration processes that you’re doing. Just because they’re in your head, it doesn’t mean that somebody else is going to be able to do them! So that would probably be my key piece of advice.
Amy: Fantastic. And I think it’s great to have these lessons learned because no rollout is ever perfect. And it’s a question of continuous improvement really, isn’t it? And learning as you go along. So that advice is very much appreciated. Tamlynne, from your perspective, are there any further pieces of advice that you’d like to share or big lessons that you’ve taken away from this with you?
Tamlynne: Yeah, I think from my perspective, certainly, bringing people along on the journey, and not just enforcing change on them is a key lesson in delivery, as well as PMO and rolling out of the tool, Bring people along the journey. Don’t do the change to them, let them be a part of that change, and the adoption will go much smoother. And as Jen says, building yourself a bit of resiliency with the videos, and the documentation has been a key learning for us. We didn’t have it in place, we’re now pretty much there and got it in place, and it’s proving to be so valuable.
Amy: Okay, brilliant. Thank you, ladies! Some great advice for our listeners there. it’s a fantastic story, as I said, and I think one of the things that comes through to me really strongly, actually, is the relationship and the symbiosis between the very strong partnership you’ve enjoyed with Planview as your vendor, the very strong relationships that you’re building out over the business as the PMO. It comes across as a real evolution in your ecosystem, not just as PMO or project managers or departments but as the enterprise as a whole. And that’s really interesting to hear about. Now, let me put you both on spot with a question that I love to ask all of our interviewees, which is from the perspective of some of our possibly younger listeners who might be coming into the project management profession for the first time or very early on in their careers. I’m sure that you agree with me that it’s a fantastic profession to be involved in. If you had to give those young people one top tip for leading a successful and happy career in PM, what would it be? Tamlynne, let me put you on the spot first!
Tamlynne: I think my top tip would be: be curious. As an individual, that quality will show through in your appetite for work and how effective you are at it. As you develop in your career, of course, you should know all of the core technicalities of your role, but also invest in developing your soft skills, your thought leadership, and your personal style. So much of our work depends on our ability to influence and manage people. And being curious and developing your personal style will be key to your success.
Amy: I absolutely couldn’t agree more. And, Jen, I don’t know if you have a personal philosophy that you live your career by?
Jen: Well, I suppose I have two that have helped me get through the years. I’m not sure everyone will agree with these! But the first one is I like to try and treat every query as if it’s the first time I’ve heard it, because it will be the first time the person has asked it. And even though I might have been asked the same question 15 times before, it’s not the fault of the person asking the question for the 16th time. So that’s probably my first one. And the second one sounds a bit morbid. So, doctors bury their mistakes. And I’ll explain why – it’s not as morbid as it sounds. It’s just I think the PMO role can sometimes feel very stressful and very overwhelming, and you’ve got a lot of plates spinning. And sometimes you will make mistakes, or you’ll forget things. And it’s not the end of the world, you know, most mistakes can be rectified. It’s something that you can work on. It’s something you can change, it’s something that you can fix. So don’t panic, don’t get overwhelmed, don’t get too stressed. Just keep your head, carry on and fix your mistake.
Amy: Tamlynne, Jen, thanks so much. It’s a great story of what comes across as a very successful and impactful transformation that is showcasing not only your great work in the PMO, but the impact across the business and the enterprise, as we’ve discussed. It’s been lovely talking to you and getting your advice. Thanks so much for spending some time with me today. For the benefit of our listeners. If you’d like to find out more about Lowell Group and their work, then you can visit their website, of course, that’s www.lowell.co.uk you can find out more about Lowell Group’s company, their services. And for anyone who’s interested in finding out more about Planview’s platform of PPM solutions, and how they can help to modernise the PMO, and build the future of connected work, there is a ton of information at www.planview.com – plenty of insights, resources, and of course, you can connect with Planview via all of their social media channels. And from my perspective, I’m always delighted to connect with our listeners and to start conversations about the PM and PMO pain points you might be facing, or indeed the successes you’re having. You might have an interesting story to share. Do search for me on LinkedIn and invite me to connect, I’m always happy to do so. And of course, don’t forget to follow the PM Today website. That’s www.pmtoday.co.uk. Look us up on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn and join the PM conversation! There’s always a lively debate to be had. And we’re always delighted to include people in that. All that remains, I think is to thank you once again, Tamlynne and Jen for your time today. I hope you’ve enjoyed being with me!
Tamlynne: Thanks, Amy, it’s been great. Thanks for having us.
Jen: Thanks, Amy. It’s been great.
Amy: Thanks again for joining me. And I think that is all we’ve got time for today. So let me just say to all of our listeners, thanks for taking the time to tune in. And I look forward to being with you again on the next PM Today podcast. Bye bye.